Talk to me!!!

[Delvie]

There was no loophole. The law was broken, and not in the form of civil disobedience.

http://www.lambdalegal.org/binary-data/LAMBDA_PDF/pdf/271.pdf

In my understanding, it seems pretty clear that the voter intiative was not banning California from permitting gay marriages, but instead keeping California from recognizing the gay marriages of other states.

A. The voters intented to only prevent the recognition of out-of-state marriages.

• The voter ballot initiative (proposition 22) was passed three months after the Vermont Supreme Court held same-sex couples deserved equal rights. Canada and the Netherlands had made similar rulings the same year.
  
• The official ballot materials said the initiative was designed to close a legal loophole; allowing out-of-state judges to create new California marriages.
  
• Numerous other guides by the authors of the proposition said similar things.

B. Even if the voters intended to prevent domestic marriages, the proposition only prevented out-of-state ones.

• The proposition modified section 308 (Marriages From Foreign Jurisdictions), not section 300 (Domestic Marriages)

C. Even the author of the proposition intended it to do only that.

• The author of the proposition has twice sought to introduce a similar proposition for domestic marriages.
  
• When the author was in the legislature he tried to pass two bills creating a similar section for domestic marriagees.

D. Even if it did outlaw domestic same-sex marriages, it wouldn't preempt action by the city of San Francisco, because there are no San Francisco laws in conflict to be preempted.

E. Even if it did preempt San Francisco laws, the County Clerk could independently assess the validity of these laws.

F. Even if it did stop the County Clerk, the Mayor could independently order the County Clerk to do it.

G. Even if it did stop the Mayor, prohibiting same-sex marriage violates the California Constitution

H. Even if the California Constitution permitted it, the prohibition violates the Federal Constitution.

I. Dayenu



When the judge ruled that marriages could continue because they weren't harmful, he wasn't saying they could continue forever! He was saying that there was no immediate irreparable harm, so an emergency stay was not needed and the marriages could continue until the case was decided. This seems right ; any harm is reparable by declaring the marriages invalid later. A stay is more appropriate for cases where the guy you're suing is costing you millions of dollars in sales by his possibly-illegal acts, or something.

The final ruling will of course turn on whether such marriages are illegal or not, not the harm that they cause. [/color]

The law was broken by an elected official, who thought it would be better to get his name up in lights.

Maybe so, but to be fair, you nor I know the reasons, simply the results.

equating these kinds of laws and something that the overwhelming number of Americans support is not the way to do it.

Equality is equality. Prejudice is prejudice. Granted, I am not an activist & contrary to what you've seen here recently, I really don't even like discussing politics that much (When we eventually have lunch or something, you will notice I rarely talk about it.), so I am probably not as up to tune w/ "everything" political to have sufficient debates.  



Gotsta get back to work now, chat @ ya later.

[Delvie]

PS. Ya ever notice how when two people get in a hot controversial discussion, everybody tends to stay out of it & watch?

[JCVaughn]

PS. Ya ever notice how when two people get in a hot controversial discussion, everybody tends to stay out of it & watch?

Heh.  ::)

[Delvie]

I had actually planned to delete that part when I got back to the hotel.


Ya beat me to it.

[boomvavavoom]

Can i come back in now!!

::)

Well...

Delvie versus JCV was veruy entertaining but I could not follow most of it cuase I am not a UScitizen and those things tend to get too far into detail for me...

Anyway. Thanks for explaining Arnie/Bush to me.

And to get back to EU and the cultural (in)differences...

JCV...the EURO is a coin made in every country so there you get some cultural heritance (our queen for Dutch coins) back and I do not fear our cultural heritage will dissolve into the bigger EU. The EU is about making countries in Europe deal more succesfull (with lesser laws and no boundaries) with eachother. The cultural things remain that of the country itself.

On the matter of East-european countries and countries like Turkey and Italy also: I HATE IT  >:(

Thos ecountry havfe such a huge history of inflation and no stabil government that I think it is a BAAAAAAD idea to get them into the EU.

But I guess the bureaucrats think difrently

Back to the studio

[boomvavavoom]

Before that, I  watched "The Man Who Predicted 9-11".  A documentary on Rick Rescorla, Security Officer for Morgan Stanley.  I found this about him on the web:

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/RickRescorla1.htm

Just incredible.

I just got into an argument with someone who told me some discrepancies on 9/11 and how there was already a plan made up in case of an event like 9/11 and how acting on such a disaster could eventually make the US number one in the world....also very thoughtprovoking stuff...

I am really not sure what to think about it, but here are also some links:

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org
http://www.911truthmovement.org

not starting a frenzy here...just what is given to me the last 12 hours

still processing data :)

[boomvavavoom]

well...I have read and seen a lot about 911 now and although consirancies seem to be obvious I think I'd better stay out of it, since too many people with too many opinions are shouting everywhere...


Next topic on my agenda...


IRAN

From what I hear, the US seems to be aiming at Iran at the moment, due to them supposedly harboring terrorists (borderwise) and being anti-US.

I have been reading in on that and seeing some documentaries made me come to the following realizations:

1] Iran had this big war in the eighties with Iraq, where the US provide Iraq with chemical weapons which hurt a lot of Iranian sons&husbands and now the iranians are kinda pissed about the US
2] iran wants nuclear energy. Not nuclear warheads or chemical weapons because that is against their believes and due to the forementionned war they will never ever use that when going to war again
3] The USA does not seem to realize they are dealing with a very different way of life, religion etc. This to me is obvious due to the "we do not like to be threatened" attitude high officials in the white house have been shouting about. Whereas the president of Iran only explains (albeit at the top of his voice :) ) why they resent America (via helping Iraq in the 80's) and that they just want to be left alone to create an Islamic country. But if the threats of the US should become more clear, they will fight (it seems)
4] Iran does not mind and even hero-izes marters. The USA does not seem to (want to) understand this manner of thought. Hence the marter vs. suicidebomber use of words in the two countries.

OK...anybody care to start a dialogue on that with me?

be aware!! I am not trying to harass or attack or belittle ANYone!!

I just seek information and this board is so darn good with it :)

[Delvie]

Don't really have the time to get into this right now because I have 3 wks of catching up to do since I've barely been able to visit here in 3 wks, let alone hop online for anything else. Suffice it to say, your conclusions are extremely 1 sided & perhaps some more research is needed before you form opinions. Sure, some of your conclusions might have a little truth to them, but they don't address the overall picture.

PS.

Take a good look @ the nutjob running Iran.

Take a good look about how other countries feel about Iran, even it's friends.

Take a good look @ Iran's past actions.

[boomvavavoom]

your conclusions are extremely 1 sided & perhaps some more research is needed before you form opinions.

sure...but that is why I came over here again :)

Take a good look @ the nutjob running Iran.

Take a good look about how other countries feel about Iran, even it's friends.

Take a good look @ Iran's past actions.

well...

part of me also want to address this:

Take a good look @ the nutjob running USA.

Take a good look about how other countries feel about USA, even it's friends.

Take a good look @ USA's past actions.

 

Just the state of the world today, would Janet Jackson say :D

I will get back sometime.

[Delvie]

your conclusions are extremely 1 sided & perhaps some more research is needed before you form opinions.

sure...but that is why I came over here again :)

Take a good look @ the nutjob running Iran.

Take a good look about how other countries feel about Iran, even it's friends.

Take a good look @ Iran's past actions.

well...

part of me also want to address this:

Take a good look @ the nutjob running USA.

Take a good look about how other countries feel about USA, even it's friends.

Take a good look @ USA's past actions.

 

Just the state of the world today, would Janet Jackson say :D

I will get back sometime.

But, you see, I never proclaimed the moral supremacy of the US. If you've done your reading of this forum you'ld know how I feel about Bush. I'm very aware that EVERYBODY has blood on their hands as I've stated many times in the past. I am also aware that while most people hate us, there is no decline in the number of visas requested to allow people to move here from every nation.

While I appreciate your points, I never claimed any of them, while, in fact... what I DID say, was

Sure, some of your conclusions might have a little truth to them, but they don't address the overall picture.

& then post some areas you might want to research that you might have overlooked that might give you a bigger picture.

[dawnsawaking]

Just the state of the world today, would Janet Jackson say :D

Ok, you quote Janet, but if you would listen to the song, it is on a global stand point and not just the U.S. and being in my schooling right now, that is the biggest thing, there are not many countries out there looking globally, they are looking at it onesided.  I think and in my standpoint of things that is the political demise of all countries and the only way to better our world is if everyone would take in consideration the different cultures and lifestyles and try to get to know them and understand them and have more of an open view and understanding.  Once this happens, maybe, just maybe the feuding will dwindle down and life will get better.

Like I said just my view point and that is coming from what I am learning at college.

[pctchuck]

Dawn, good points, but it ain't gonna happen sister.  To many people in other cultures have decided that the west is decadant, and the only way to deal with it is to cleanse their part of the world of all western influence.  The funny thing is, on a personal level, many of the people who say the west needs to be out of their culture immediately take up our morals when outside of their native influence.
Personally, I think that the only way this world is going to come together is for there to be some outside force that comes along and threaten us all (like in the movie Independence Day).  Maybe then everyone will give a little and come together.  I'm not expecting it to happen in my lifetime.

[boomvavavoom]

But, you see, I never proclaimed the moral supremacy of the US. If you've done your reading of this forum you'ld know how I feel about Bush.

I know. I have read it. I was just...well. Maybe not as serious about it as I should.

I am also aware that while most people hate us, there is no decline in the number of visas requested to allow people to move here from every nation.

yup...I have my reservations about the US but mainly I just LOVE IT :) No shorter way to explain it I think. I love the comics, the movies and the lean mean machine it sometimes seems. I love the attitude and even can laugh about stupid people that want legislation in order to carry a concealed weapon for all kids on campus!!!

See...again I am not taking it seriously enough :(

While I appreciate your points, I never claimed any of them, while, in fact... what I DID say, was

Sure, some of your conclusions might have a little truth to them, but they don't address the overall picture.

& then post some areas you might want to research that you might have overlooked that might give you a bigger picture.

noted and will look into it for sure!!!

Thanks everyone!!

[dawnsawaking]

Dawn, good points, but it ain't gonna happen sister.  To many people in other cultures have decided that the west is decadant, and the only way to deal with it is to cleanse their part of the world of all western influence.  The funny thing is, on a personal level, many of the people who say the west needs to be out of their culture immediately take up our morals when outside of their native influence.
Personally, I think that the only way this world is going to come together is for there to be some outside force that comes along and threaten us all (like in the movie Independence Day).  Maybe then everyone will give a little and come together.  I'm not expecting it to happen in my lifetime.

I know, never said I was going to hold my breath!  It is just what I see and feel on my standpoint!  But I agree too on that something huge will have to happen to make people rise together and stand as one!

[california69gs]

Well, at least Bush and those in the white house have the forethought to spare the rod. When 9-11 happened my only thought was to lash out in a way that could never be forgotten.  I would not have hesitated to launch a single nuke straight into the heart of Bin L's summer house.  Nothing like a barren wasteland several miles long to send a message. I pretty much at the same thought with Sadam. The US is considered a super-power for more then just it's economy and I feel that everyone around the world should remember just how hard we can punch as Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been forgotten.

My Brother was in the 1st gulf war,  he was a E4 Tech/engineer and he was aboard one of our nuclear sub's for 2 months before we even knew about it.  He also got to spend time doing recon after missle strikes taking pictures, they were all horrible sights, bodies hanging out of burnt out tanks taken out with pin-point missle strikes from the sub's missles.  My sister-in-law was sent to Iraq for the 2nd and was discharged after a serious leg injury (she slipped down several flights of steps when patroling a temp Navy port) and will alway's have those rods and screws. Don't get me wrong at least she was never shot and is safely home. I had several co-workers who were sent to Afganistan to mash units for not months but years.  90% of those that they helped were Afgan civillians who were injured by terrorists, rebels, and other fractions that shot people at random and countless land mine injuries.  Millions if not billions of dollars spent helping and healing not to mention the millions/billions spent rebuilding what we blew up, but I'm sure other coutries don't hear about that.

Certainly would have been more easier, cheaper, and saved countless American lives by just launching a nuke or two from home. So I guess be thankfull that Bush is the nutjob and not someone like me.  Cuz when Bin L went on the air taking credit for 9-11, personally, I was ready to kill them all and let God sort them out.

There will alway's be war and rumors of war.  I rarely watch the news or surf the net.  It's my full belief that the TV channel Exects get to decide what their respective contries believe and I do my best not to let a box decide what I should think.  My stories come from family and friends that were there. While I have to believe the box's reason as to why we went to war, I can from trusted word of mouth tell you what we did there.

[pctchuck]

I read  "From Baghdad With Love" yesterday, a story of a Marine who befriended a puppy, and his trials with getting the dog out of Iraq and into the States.  I know that he toned down what he saw, and that a lot of what he did put into the book had to be dragged out of him by his co=author, but it still was pretty disturbing.  I refused to let my 14 year-old read the book, other than check out the pictures and the captions under them, so that he would know what happened with the dog.  War is hell, and I'm glad that I never had to experiance it.  I have a brother-in-law who was in Saudi Arabia 2 days before GH Bush told America that he was sending troops into the region.  He was in communications, and saw a lot more than he'll ever tell, but most of it was from a distance (except for the SCUD attacks, those were pretty close to him).  He now suffers from Gulf War Syndrom rash, and nothing will clear it up.  My hat is off to all who put their lives on the line daily, for reasons that many do not support.

[jsniderfamily]

I assume the dog went to heaven?

[boomvavavoom]

ALL dogs go to heaven :D

[Delvie]

I assume the dog went to heaven?

That's subjective. If I recall correctly, the dog humped his leg - which squarely puts him in the gay liberal crowd... & you know how the religious mafia feels about that.

[kikuchiyo]

That's subjective. If I recall correctly, the dog humped his leg - which squarely puts him in the gay liberal crowd... & you know how the religious mafia feels about that.

That's funny.

[flerk]

Just the state of the world today, would Janet Jackson say :D

Ok, you quote Janet, but if you would listen to the song, it is on a global stand point and not just the U.S. and being in my schooling right now, that is the biggest thing, there are not many countries out there looking globally, they are looking at it onesided.  I think and in my standpoint of things that is the political demise of all countries and the only way to better our world is if everyone would take in consideration the different cultures and lifestyles and try to get to know them and understand them and have more of an open view and understanding.  Once this happens, maybe, just maybe the feuding will dwindle down and life will get better.

Like I said just my view point and that is coming from what I am learning at college.

I think you are right on Dawn.

[Delvie]

A little off topic, but:



Saw this & thought it was funny

[pctchuck]

The dog went to southern California and runs on the beaches.  Close enough to heaven for some.

[dawnsawaking]

I assume the dog went to heaven?

That's subjective. If I recall correctly, the dog humped his leg - which squarely puts him in the gay liberal crowd... & you know how the religious mafia feels about that.

Dude....what if like...."c.a.t."...spelled dog....that's deep

[Delvie]

I assume the dog went to heaven?

That's subjective. If I recall correctly, the dog humped his leg - which squarely puts him in the gay liberal crowd... & you know how the religious mafia feels about that.

Dude....what if like...."c.a.t."...spelled dog....that's deep